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This is part 1 of the Billy Goodman radio interview with Robert Lazar.
DATE OF UPLOAD: December 27, 1989
ORIGIN OF UPLOAD: KVEG Radio; Las Vegas, Nevada
CONTRIBUTED BY: Robert B. Klinn/ParaNet Director of Research and
(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.
Below is the transcript of the Billy Goodman Happening Show
as it aired on December 20, 1989. Robert Lazar was the guest of
What exactly does Area S-4 mean?
I really don't know. It might be referred to as "Site" 4 --
that might be what the "S" is for, but I really don't know.
There are THREE S-4's in all of the Nevada Test Site. The
nuclear test site itself is a small area, and it has "sites"
or "areas" 1 to 29 or 30. The S-4 there, I think, is a
nuclear reactor. There's an S-4 just south of the Tonopah test
range. And there's an S-4 -- the one that I worked at -- just
south of Groom Lake.
Bob Lazar, while working there as a Government scientist, saw
not only one but as many as nine flying saucers. And he's
telling the whole world about it. He wants everybody to know
that in fact there are flying saucers out there. Last time
you were here, you never really told us what are their plans
with these flying saucers. Do you have any idea WHY we have
flying saucers at this point?
I guess it's just essentially research. The idea is to back-
engineer them, to go back and find out how they can be duplicated
using earthly materials and technology.
Is it possible these machines travel in time back and forth?
It's certainly possible. Certainly, when you create any
artificial gravitational field, you technically move in your
own time. So technically, you do slip forward when you create
your own intense gravitational field.
BACK in time too?
Theoretically, that's possible. Exactly how you would do that,
I don't know off the top of my head.
So that could be used like a time machine, right?
Essentially yeah, that is --
For time travel?
-- that is possible.
Wow! That's really something!
Yeah, that's science-fiction-like.
Fritz, Westlake, California:
Billy, it is sizzling again on the West Coast. Bob Lazar,
thank you very much for coming on again. You must come on.
This has got to go nationwide. The cat is out of the bag.
I'm sure those little gods in S-54 are listening in, and
believe me, it's your best security to come on. If anything
happens to you, we're all behind you, Bob Lazar -- everybody.
This is like a snowball going down the hill and will become an
avalanche, and ignorance will be wiped out. We've got to know
the truth -- for once and forever. They are here! Let's find
out why they are here and who they are and what their purpose is.
Well thank you!
Okay Bob, we're all behind you. Billy, keep that show going!
It's the Number One show in America in talk shows.
Well, thank you very much Fritz. He did explain to you why we
have flying saucers, right?
Well, I know why they are here. The general public has to become
aware; they're just wakening up. It's like a film being lifted
from their eyes. I mean, they've been laughing for forty years!
Wait a minute Fritz. You know why they're here? Why are they
Well, first of all, it's a conditioning process.
Okay, you got it.
We are in a quarantine because we are so ignorant; our ignorance
keeps us from meeting them. Big brother reaches out the hand and
says, "Come over, little brother, let's have the cosmic connection,"
but we have to become a world together -- earthlings.
We are about 170 nations -- 170 languages; we have to come together.
When we have a spokesman, then we will meet on equal ground.
Tim from Pasadena:
When you looked into the saucer, how does the hatch work? How
does it seal up, and what are all of the mechanics involved?
The hatch -- or whatever it was -- was completely removed; there was
just an opening in the side of the craft.
Did the opening have any kind of sealing around it or a lip?
I really don't remember. 'Cause I was so interested in looking
inside, I didn't really catch a strong glimpse of the sealing
mechanism or any other thing around it.
When you were previously on Billy's show, you said you looked into
one, and it was all smooth like it had been a wax casting.
Now, was that the only one you looked into?
No, it was the only one I looked into. The other ones I just saw
from a distance, so I don't know any detail about them.
And the one you looked into, was that the "Sport Model"?
And that's the only one you saw fly as well?
What was your work there?
Like I said before, it was essentially to back-engineer the
propulsion and power system.
So you weren't really involved in the mechanics of the craft
No, not at all.
But mostly just the Element 115 and all that kind of stuff you
were learning about?
What is gravity?
Gravity is a wave. It's a force, essentially, just like
electromagnetic waves are a different type of force. I really don't
know a good way to describe gravity.
Einstein and other scientists really don't have an answer for what
gravity is, do they, totally; they don't really understand it
totally, do they?
No, no, not at all. In fact, I don't think we understand
ANYTHING about gravity.
Why don't we just float away ourselves? What keeps us down
on the planet?
That is the attractive force of gravity.
Some people say it presses down, but it doesn't, does it?
No, it doesn't. It's an attractive force. It's like, on
an atomic scale, the strong and weak nuclear forces hold the
atoms individually together.
Is your actual title government scientist or physicist?
You could use either one.
You are no longer a government scientist or physicist, right?
Not employed by the government.
But you are continuing in the scientific field. What do you do?
I design and build advanced radiation detection equipment,
mainly alpha radiation equipment for essentially use in
detecting plutonium for national laboratories.
How long has that craft been on this earth?
I really don't know. I don't even know how long it's
been down at S-4.
Do you know where it originally landed?
No, you got me on all that stuff. They really never keep me
in as to --
It could have been here for years?
Yeah. Or it could have been brought in in pieces from
somewhere else, too.
Did you see just one craft or a number of craft?
I saw a number of them.
Did the other workers talk about it, where it came from,
or more they towed in, or whatever?
I don't know. There really wasn't that much conversation
Were you by yourself when you were investigating the craft?
Walking by myself. There were security people around me,
but when I crawled underneath on the sub-floor to look at
the gravity amplifiers, I got away from them. But there
was no one right next to me the whole time.
Any evidence of LIVE aliens held captive?
Nothing I could put my finger on.
Then you didn't get to see any at all then in that sector?
Nothing I could put my finger on.
Did the craft have sleeping quarters for aliens? Is it like
a Star Trek craft? What kind of craft is it?
No, it's pretty vacant inside. Granted, a couple of things
were removed; they were sawed off at the base. I don't
know what they were; I just saw little stumps on the ground,
so I don't know what was removed. But it doesn't look
like it had anything like sleeping quarters or anything
Any writing you could detect or any language on the walls?
Any panels, like a dashboard on a car?
Yeah. In fact, that was one of the things -- There was more
than one control panel set up, but it looks like one was
Were these craft all from the same source? Were they all
No. Each craft was completely different in physical
appearance. I didn't get to look in depth at the other
craft, but I only fooled around with one.
I applaud your courage.
Caller (referring to a certain book):
Have you heard of him?
I think I thumbed through that book once. I think John
What the heck is an energy grid on our planet?
I don't know. I don't buy that theory or anything in
that book. It's a grid outlined over the entire globe,
and at each intersection there's an energy vortex of
some kind. I'd rather not comment since I don't buy it.
On TV you mentioned something about a time warp and a
folding over. What did you mean by that?
Right. It's how gravity, whether produced artificially
or naturally, distorts time and space.
I read about Nicola Tesla questioning Einstein's theory
of relativity. He says that energy DOESN'T come from
matter. Where does it come from if it doesn't come
That's a strange question. It can be EXTRACTED from
matter. But it can be extracted by other means, too.
I really don't understand that [question].
Tom from Los Angeles:
How can UFOs be kept secret for 40 years?
I did pose that question to some people at S-4, and the
answer that I got was that it's the easiest thing TO keep
secret because of the subject matter.
Is that because it's tied in with a lot of parapsychology-
psychic-type stuff -- National Enquirer?
Maybe so. There is so much disinformation made so available
to the public via the tabloids and things like that that
any true information getting out is assumed to originate
from those sources.
Carl Sagan is a "people" scientist; he's brought science
down to the general public. What about getting him involved
in this somehow?
I imagine he's fairly open-minded. I've never met him.
He's one of the biggest UFO debunkers.
He's going to need his own proof, as everyone should require.
It's impossible to make an absolute believer out of someone
that hasn't had hands-on experience or has seen something for
themselves. That's the way any scientist is going to look
How far is Zeta Reticuli?
I think it's around 32 light years.
Do these ships travel faster than light?
It's an irrelevant question because they get around it
because they're not in a linear mode of travel. Since they're
distorting time and space, there's no true time reference.
And since velocity is distance over time, when you begin to
fool around with time, you really can't state a true velocity.
Re the SETI program -- the search for radio signals --
couldn't some of these observatories or telescopes be aimed
at the places where aliens supposedly come from?
RADIO waves and frequencies along that band aren't utilized;
it's GRAVITY wave communication, and a radio-telescope isn't
going to pick up anything of that sort.
The way you got to see this UFO was not planned by anyone
wanting you to see it, right? You were walking with security
and you went into a doorway. How did you describe that before?
It may have been planned by them. I had no advance warning of
it. I had been brought in a separate door the whole time, and
one specific time I was just led into the area where I worked --
through the hangar doors, which I had never been in before --
walked directly by the craft, and began to slow down by it,
and they said, "Just keep walking; keep your eyes forward," and
it was just like that.
Nothing was said, and I just went and sat down in an empty room.
You went and sat down in an empty room after you saw it?
Yeah, waited for this guy that I worked with, Barry, and then
we went to work on some of the work we were assigned to.
What was some of the work that you actually did? What did
you actually do at S-4? When you had an assignment, what would
it have been, for example?
Most of the time I worked there I was being briefed and being
brought up to date on what had been done before. Most of
the hands-on bench work was with the anti-matter reactor
itself: being shown how it operated, giving demonstrations,
and things of that sort.
There was practically no communication with your fellow workers?
Right. They kept that to an absolute minimum. They were on the
buddy system: you always worked with someone, and that's the
person you communicated with, and there was really no cross-
talk between groups.
When you went there for the initial interview, you said at
the time they actually had a gun at your head --
No, that was at the security briefing.
Security, wherever that may be --
The initial interview when you went to work at S-4 I'm talking
about, that's not when the gun was at your head?
When you went there, what was your understanding about what
you were going to be doing?
Some high-technology work, and I assumed they were talking
about some sort of gravitational propulsion system.
Were you excited about that?
Oh yeah, very much so, because there was some talk about
that because it was something that I was interested in,
something they KNEW I was interested in, and that was the
hint that I got.
And did it come to fruition? Did what you were told you were
going to do actually happen?
For what period of time?
[Goodman goes right into NEXT question.]
How long were you actually there before you let people know
what was going on up there? How many months or days or whatever?
Probably a couple of months.
Every time you went there you literally had to fly up, land at
Groom Lake, take a bus that was blacked out at the windows --
-- and no communication on the bus. What were you thinking as
a young man. You're a very young man; let's face it.
I'm not that young.
Well, you're a very young man; I think you are. Anyway, what
were you thinking? Were you just saying, well this just goes
with the territory and I'm just going to go along with this?
Oh yeah, you bet! I would have done that and much more just
to be involved with the project.
Ah! The excitement was just being there, being a part of
what was going on behind the scenes. The secret part about it?
Oh sure. I would have taken a LOT more crap than they had
Can you picture it? He's in his thirties, sitting on a bus,
and accepting the fact, Okay, I'm going to work this morning,
not talking to his compadres on the bus, is looking straight
ahead, blackened-out windows, not driving on asphalt, all dirt
roads. . . Didn't you ask yourself why they didn't do anything
about the dirt roads?
It was a good dirt road. A lot of the roads around there are
dirt, in fact almost all are.
Mark in Los Angeles:
Previously, you described the central column of the propulsion
device as being a wave guide. There was a disk toward the
bottom of this thing down near the anti-matter generator that
spins. What is that disk made of --
There's no spinning disk.
What is the disk made of? Is it a capacitor?
A disk? The wave guide extends down, and it widens out and
sits on the curved portion of the reactor. The bottom of the
reactor is a plate, but nothing rotates or moves; it's all
Is that plate a capacitor?
Well, what is it made of?
Metal. That's the only way I can describe it; I don't know
what kind; it's [electric-] --
Did anyone determine the kind of metal it was?
Not to my knowledge.
I understand that part of the propulsion system involves a
very large capacitor -- which is usually the entire lower
surface of the disk -- that can make use of something along the
lines of the [Bifield] Brown Effect. Do you know what
the components of the dielectric material in that capacitor
Well, if the bottom of the disk is one plate of the
capacitor, then the dielectric material would be the air --
if you're going to look at the earth as another plate of
the capacitor. But as far as the capacitor being integral
to the actual craft itself, no, I found no evidence of
I understand there's an antenna section in this device; what
is the resonant frequency that that operates at?
The resonant frequency of the gravity wave I do know, but
I don't know it off hand; I just can't remember it.
Can you give me a ballpark, like 2,000 kilohertz?
I really don't remember. It's a really odd frequency.
Is it measured in kilohertz or gigahertz or megahertz?
I really don't remember.
When you first started to go public and were meeting with
people at John Lear's house, I understand that there were
a number of witnesses at those first meetings. One of them
claims that you did say that you had seen an extraterrestrial
while working inside one of those saucers, trying to back-
engineer the propulsion system, and that you had been
looking out through a doorway or through a porthole in the
side of the device and that you had actually seen an
extraterrestrial walking around on the outside of one of
Devices meaning disks?
So you're saying you've never seen an extraterrestrial at
I really don't want to get into that.
The reason I ask is because someone else is claiming that
Well, stated the way you did, no I didn't. And I never did
look and see an extraterrestrial. As the story goes, and
the reason I never bring it up, is because I thought I saw
something once -- walking at a glance -- and that's all there
is to it. And I won't stand on that fact because it was
just a fleeting glimpse; when I came back, whatever was
there was gone; it could have been a million things.
I have a contact that claims that you were responsible
for determining that Element 115 was not in fact necessary
to operate an anti-gravity propulsion device in the earth's
magnetic field. Is that true?
No, it's the exact opposite.
Why are you going public? There's obviously a lot of other
staff on the project that senses a great degree of loyalty.
The straw that broke the camel's back was, after I left
the program I became concerned about what happens now. I
made a routine request for my birth certificate, which I
needed just for I.D. purposes, and I was told that it
doesn't exist, I wasn't even born at that hospital. I sat
on that for about a week and just wondered, and then I
began to inquire at previous jobs and also at other schools,
and that information was also gone. And I got the idea that
soon someone was going to disappear, so that's when I contacted
the TV station and essentially let everything out.
But you left the program under very amicable circumstances?
No, that's a long, involved story that I really don't want
to get into.
Are you afraid of any repercussions from the govenment?
Oh yeah, I was really concerned at one time.
Less so now?
Yeah, less so now, but you still keep in the back of your
mind . . .
If anything would happen to you now, that would cause such an
uproar in itself, the last thing they would do would be to go
anywhere near you.
Exactly. As someone said on the media somewhere, if there're
following me now, it's to make sure nothing happens to me.
Did you witness any working models of the vehicle that were
I only saw one operate. I saw one at close range while I
was at the area and then at extreme distance -- about 15
miles, when I brought some friends up to look at it.
Using the technology that's being used, the craft are very
agile, aren't they?
Oh yes, very, in one specific mode of travel.
In one direction at a time?
No. There's two modes of travel. There's a low-speed mode
and a high-speed mode. I don't remember what they called them;
they had a specific name for them.
What was the size of the staff working on the project?
22 people that I knew of, in the area that I worked in. How
extensive the rest of the facility was, I don't know.
I understand you were frustrated at the size of the staff.
You thought it should have been larger?
Oh yeah! Much!
More could have been learned about the program more
Sure! I mean, 22 people, c'mon!
Do you think we understand enough about the alien propulsion
technology to build our own vehicles, using this technology --
or are we even close? Do we know what's going on?
Yeah, we know what's going on, but the problem is substituting
earthly materials, and there's no easy way getting around that.
How is Element 115 involved in the construction of the vehicles?
Everything seems to come down to 115. It's a super-heavy
element. It seems that as you get into the heavier elements --
and I'm sure this property extends into as-yet-undiscovered
elements in excess of atomic number 115 -- that the ATOMIC
gravity wave inside the atoms holding things together begins
to extend outside of the atomic structure itself, and it's
this wave that can be tapped off in quantity -- small quantity,
actually. This wave can be amplified, contained, and used
for a useful purpose.
Are your radiation detectors for nuclear power plants?
Not nuclear power plants; weapon . . .where they use
Like the latest flight above us now?
Are you involved with that, Mr. Lazar?
Not directly. Someone may have used our probes to
Are they flying these vehicles within our city areas at any
I really don't know. I was only witness to a couple tests.
I don't know how far they go. I think they're very careful
with them. I personally don't think they're whipping them
around the solar system because I don't know how profficient
they are at operating them.
Do you read any UFO literature in book form?
Nothing in book form. I occasionally get handed little tidbits
here and there and glance at them, but no, I don't delve
You mentioned some stuff on the Billy Meiers case. Have
you read any of that information because you had mentioned
that you had seen some pictures?
Yeah, I looked at the, what caught my eye was certainly
the -- whatever that book's called -- Contact From the Plaeides
or something -- but it's essentially a picture book; there's
really no text in it. One of the craft in there looks strikingly
similar to the one I call the Sport Model.
What did you think of that similarity? Did that puzzle you?
Yeah, because originally I had kind of discounted the Billy
Meiers stuff, but that craft looks AMAZINGLY like the one that
I worked on. And another thing, somewhere in that book they
had a picture of a grassy field with three round indents in
the ground. Now that would coincide with the three gravity
amplifiers in the bottom of the craft and the imprint that
they do make, so that kind of makes me believe that that
really did occur.
You said you didn't necessarily share the same views of
Bill Cooper and John Lear as far as the big picture
I'm not exactly sure what each individual story is.
John Lear has a specific story; Bill Cooper has a specific
story. I do agree with both of them in the fact that,
yeah, there's alien craft here and so on and so forth.
John Lear thinks there're here to use us for food. I
don't exactly remember Bill Cooper's story. But the little
intricate parts here and there -- I just haven't seen any
evidence MYSELF of it. I don't know what these gentlemen
have found out on their own.
From everything you know about it, do you believe there is
a possibility there are benevolent creatures in the universe?
How would you describe this picture?
It's an interesting picture. It looks like a formation of
four and a formation of two flying saucers.
That picture came in a box delivered to the Vagabond Inn.
No name, no nothing. Just a note:
"This picture was taken from the 29-1/2-mile marker on the
day that I had the best time of my life, thanks to you,
Billy Goodman Happening."
There's even a distortion in the cloud behind a couple of
them; that's really interesting.
That is right up there where people have gone. Bob mentioned
the same thing that I said when I saw that: "Boy, that's
a DAYTIME shot."
Look at the smile on Bob Lazar's face!
It would be interesting to magnify it to some degree.
Very interesting. They're glowing the color that the
I don't know who you are out there, but I thank you very,
very, very much, because that is absolute, positive proof
that they are up there in the sky having a good time.
Do you think that they're flown by alien beings, or are
WE -- the military -- doing it?
I think that the ones that we're testing . . . the one
that I was involved in I think is being flown by the
military. Whatever else is going on I don't know.
Was that picture taken over Area 51?
That's right. And it looks like it. Recognize the peak?
Yeah. Of course, that's a daytime photograph. And I was
told that all the testing was done at night. And, I mean,
You described, when you went inside one of these little
puppies, that there were very, very small seats, almost like
a kindergarten type.
So we have to have some small guys doing it -- jockeys
No,no. You could squeeze into it.
Do these craft appear to be shuttle craft, not the main
I don't know how you'd differentiate between the two?
In most instances, people speak of them joining up with
another craft and then going out of the atmosphere. Could
the models you've seen be classed as shuttle craft in
I really don't know.
They wouldn't carry a big fleet of people?
No, definitely not. They are small, I'm guessing right in
the mid-30-, 40-foot range, somewhere in there. And as far
as carrying a lot of cargo or beings or whatever, no, there's
not a whole lot of room there. So possibly there is a larger
craft that they join with, but I didn't see any.
Are there more engines than there are craft at S-4?
That's a good question. There's nine craft. I really don't
It would be something to explain how in the hell we got more
engines than we do craft. There's got to be some kind of an
agreement or somebody helping us.
Right. There's certainly more fuel than there needs to be.
Since they have released you and taken away your scientific
livelihood, I hope you go on the national circuit, 60 Minutes,
the Carson show, everything you can get on, and milk it for
every dime you can get.
You have a right to do that since they interrupted your career.
But the important thing is to get this stuff into the hands of
the scientific community, that can do some good with it.
They've been toying with it for years and nothing's come out of
it. We can't get anywhere. We've got to get it out of the
hands of these power-mongers.
I agree one hundred percent.
I think that's why you took people up there in the first
place. You were tired of their games.
Wesley Crumb, Charleston, Illinois:
It's a great privilege to get a chance to speak with you.
I greatly admire your courage in coming forward. I saw a
copy of the KLAS program you did. When I first heard about
you I ran up about a $300 phone bill calling New York and
Chicago, and everywhere. I got a rejection today from the
Donahue show that they don't want to do a program about you.
Did you go inside all nine spacecraft?
No, no, just one.
When you were inside the craft, did you see any indication
that either through markings on the controls or otherwise
that these ships were from a different place? Was there
any writing on any controls or anything?
No, not on controls and things like that. But I did see
some evidence of writing.
When you saw the slight demonstration that was performed for
you, were you the only person that was there that saw this
No, there were several people. I was standing right next to
the person who was in radio contact with the craft.
How long did this demonstration last?
It was a short duration. It lifted off the ground, slid
over to the left, then back to the right, and set back
down. It was a very short duration.
But you never saw who was at the controls?
No, because when I was brought in, the craft was in the
hangar. When I came out, it was already out of the hangar
and sitting on -- well, sitting out away from the hangar
some distance. So I don't know how it was brought out, who
brought it out, who got in it. I can only guess.
Is the entire thing underground -- all nine different
No, it's not underground; it's just butt up against the
side of a little mountain, a little hill kind of, but it's
kind of inside the mountain.
Do you feel that the billions of dollars that are being
spent on the space program by the administration is a waste
of money, as we already have these ships in our posssession?
No, because look at all the technology that we did get out
of the space program.
Was it ever disclosed to you that these craft were on loan
to us. Is there a chance of them being repossessed at any
No, none of that was ever disclosed to me -- anything about
I heard a rumor earlier this evening that your van was shot
at recently. Is there any truth to that?
I don't have a van. I was shot at in my car.
It got passed on to me from the Video Clearinghouse in
Yucaipa, and we've been keeping pretty close touch ever
since this news broke.
I did get a call yesterday from the National Enquirer. They
might follow up and try and do something for you, Bob.
The Enquirer is not exactly the best way you want to go,
but at least it does have some national exposure.
Burt in Burbank:
You said there's more fuel than necessary at the Test
Yeah. I don't know exactly where it is, but there's
500 pounds of Element 115?
Yeah, and it takes 223 grams per craft, so there's
definitely an abundance of fuel out there.
Could you quickly describe the underside of these
No, because I only saw from a SIDE view of only
one craft. The other ones were always sitting on the
ground; I never saw it. But the underside is
essentially flat. Now, I never got directly under it
to look. There might be some features down there, but
I really don't know.
The reason I ask is because you were talking about the
three distortions that can come down from the gravity
engines to distort the graph.
Are you aware of any time distortion within the saucer
itself while they are running?
Yeah, there has to be.
What about SIZE distortion within the ship?
I've heard reports that people who have been in
these that the inside seems much larger than the
outside would indicate.
I have heard that too, but I haven't really seen
any evidence of that.
You were talking about the low- and high-speed modes
and the control factors in there. Can you describe
those modes and what the ship looks like each time
it is going through those modes?
The low-speed mode -- and I REALLY wish I could remember
what they call these, but I can't, as I can't remember
the frequency of the wave --
The low-speed mode: The craft is very vulnerable; it bobs
around. And it's sitting on a weak gravitational field,
sitting on three gravity waves. And it just bounces
around. And it can focus the waves behind it and keep
falling forward and hobble around at low speed.
The second mode: They increase the amplitude of the
field, and the craft begins to lift, and it performs a
ROLL maneuver: it begins to turn, roll, begins to turn
over. As it begins to leave the earth's gravitational
field, they point the bottom of the craft at the
DESTINATION. This is the second mode of travel, where
they converge the three gravity amplifiers -- FOCUS
them -- on a point that they want to go to. Then they
bring them up to full power, and this is where the
tremendous time-space distortion takes place, and that
whips them right to that point.
Did you actually bench-test a unit away from the
The reactor, yeah.
About how large is this, and could you describe it?
The device itself is probably a plate about 18 inches
square; I said diameter before but it is square. There's
a half-sphere on top where the gravity wave is tapped off
of, but that's about the size of it.
Are there subjects you won't talk about regarding what
was going on at Groom Lake at the project?
No, I don't think so.
Do you have future plans for more publicity?
There are several networks that are interested.
That's been mentioned, but I haven't heard anything
Would you do it?
Yeah, I'd do a major network thing, sure.
Are you familiar with the movie Hangar 18?
Yeah, I think I saw that when it first came out.
Do you remember any parallels to what you know now?
I don't remember enough about the movie.
The KLAS-TV program showed a Los Alamos newspaper
article about you during the time that you were
at Los Alamos. What paper was that? When was it
The Monitor, July 1982, or something like that.
I think I still have a copy at home.
Did the alien craft create harmful radioactivity
in the area?
The woman talked about on the show a few days ago --
the child and the two women [Cash/Landrum case?] -- and
they now have cancer. How did that occur?
I've heard of that before, and that sounds like a
really poor attempt at us producing a craft -- a
nuclear-powered craft, really dirty, spewing nuclear
material all over the place. It sounds something
that we would make. It really rings human.
Do the aliens appear to be the same physical makeup?
From your research on the craft itself, can you tell
if they are similar to us -- by the way it was
But there's nothing other than that?
Not from the crafts. I read some material pertaining
to what they call the typical grey. I believe
them to be that.
It was interesting when you asked for your birth
certificate, and you could not locate it. And
they told you that literally you did not exist?
They TOLD you this in so many words?
They said we just have no records here.
And YOU felt that you didn't exist?
I felt that that's what they were trying to
Are you familiar with that type of thing
No, I never heard of it before. I guess
other people have.
Did you ever get your birth certificate?
What about diplomas and things of that nature?
Was there any record of any colleges you have
George Knapp tracked down one, and they still
had a record there.
All the rest are gone?
Have you called the colleges yourself and asked
Yeah. Yeah. Just like I went and called Los
Alamos, too, and they said, no, you never worked
here, and you know, I've been there for years. You
can present them with the information, look, here's
my name in the [Los Alamos] phone book, here are the
people that I've worked with, here is the guy that
I worked for, this is the project I worked on, and
all they say is no. I mean it's ridiculous.
And when you're talking to these people, I'm sure
there are some that probably are just working there;
they don't know any different. They are just checking
the records and saying we don't have anything.
Right. You can hear them when you call up. They
are checking on the computer. They will type in
your name and it won't come up. So that's
probably all they do know.
People should realize this -- nowadays especially --
you could be pulled out -- all of us could -- and
anything we've ever done. If someone pulls your
name out of a computer where you've worked before
or you've had some past, you don't exist because
the new person or a personnel director going in and
checking -- you're not there. You have no record
of that individual.
Right. It depends on the level that you look into
it, too. Like I said, George Knapp went out to
Los Alamos, and that's where he got the telephone
directory and spoke to someone I worked with out
there, and so on.
This mode of travel involved in moving these
UFOs around: Can you see that being a mode of
travel for us in the future. You said it only
took grams of fuel. That sounds pretty good
to me as far as being efficient. Do you think that
it's possible that we could be traveling like that
in the future?
Well, obviously, THEY do, so I imagine it's possible
in the future.
I'm talking about our automobiles. And do you have to
be off the ground in order to travel like this?
Yeah, I think you do. It's not a very good mode of
----------Continued in Lazar:Goodman 2 ----------------------------
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From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Don Allen)
Subject: INFO:LAZAR - Billy Goodman interview -Part 2 (conclusion)
Keywords: Robert Lazar -UFO - Area51
Date: 4 Jul 91 01:54:13 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
---------Billy Goodman interview of Robert Lazar, part 2 (conclusion) --
Something else we talked about off the air. We might
as well tell the people about it. Some strange things
are going on in your life. You mentioned about car doors
being opened. Describe what happened the other night
when you and your . . . Shelley left the house and you
came back and the doors were wide open. What do you
think about all this?
It's crazy! A friend of mine, Shelley, was over, and
we went out to a bar to have a, a, well, a buffet. We
went out, locked the door, checked everything, and we
came back several hours later, and all the doors were open.
And nothing was disturbed in the house; nothing was
taken. In her car that was left in the driveway, the
seats were moved all the way back like someone big sat
I've gone with other friends to a health club that I
go to. We lock the doors and check them; in fact, I
usually keep a gun in the car and put my wallet on the
dash. We've come out and the doors have been not just
unlocked but actually open -- not even the wallet taken
or the gun. Certainly kids would have done THAT. It's
just like someone wants me to know that they're still
The last time you were on the Happening, you revealed
the gentleman's name --
-- saying he was threatening you and was the biggest
problem in your life. Have you had any problems with him since
No, not recently, no.
How would the anti-matter reactor act in a car?
I don't know if I'd use that in a car. But if you wanted
to, you could use it as a tremendous electrical power.
Which goes back to the beginning of time: We were going
to have electric cars and were convinced we shouldn't have
electric cars because we were told we would have to plug
them in along the way.
It wouldn't be necessary -- as they said years ago -- to
plug in along the way to re-charge the batteries if we had
something inside to generate --
Right. Along the same lines, you could make a NUCLEAR-powered
car, too, running off plutonium.
If we wanted to get involved with this anti-matter-reactor-type
or mode of travel, we'd have to have Element 115 --
-- which you had in your possession at one time.
Yeah, that's one of the things I got. And that was my
And they got it off you.
Yeah. We did get it. . . For people that saw the KLAS
tape, where George Knapp points and says, "It's stored in
containers similar to this one," well, that WAS one. And
that's why we put it on there. It was kind of a jab at
them to say we got it. That was the real ace-in-the-hole
because if everyone came out and jumped on it and said
this is all garbage and everything, you know, just to pop
that out and say, go check this!
Listen guys out there at Area S-4: I know you're listening
'cause we heard this recently. Why don't you get some of
that somehow to Bob.
Why would that be your ace-in-the-hole?
Because anyone can verify that it's an element that
Boy, that would be wonderful if we could just get that.
Any of you Mercury Workers up there that want to get
involved, and say that you do want to get involved, that
might be a great way to help Bob's cause out and to prove
his story, behind the story.
Bill from Las Vegas:
Someone previously called in and said that some of the
Mercury Workers had decided to get behind Lazar. Has Bob
Lazar ever heard anything in relation to that? Have any
of the Mercury Workers contacted him, and do any of them
intend to go public as you have done?
I don't know what the situation is with those guys, if
they're for real or not. I've got messages through people
that someone called once and said there were three of them
and two of them were captured down at S-4 being tortured.
And there was another guy out here. And so I really don't
know what the story is with those guys -- if they're for
real or not.
Have you had any contact from other scientists that you
had worked with or any other scientists either at S-4
or any other scientists that don't work there?
Scientists that DON'T work there, yeah, that I worked with
at Los Alamos, sure. But none at S-4, no.
Since you've gone public with this, you've had contact with
them calling you and wanting to know what's going on,
Oh yeah. There were a couple that I gave information to
as we were going along. And they knew what was going on
already -- through me.
If you had other people to back you up and support you, it
might lend more credibility to what you're saying.
That was part of the idea of getting it on the news, and
I thought hopefully I would shake the tree and have these
other guys come forward and all be able to corroborate the
story and also have 115 under my belt, but that whole plan
This is for them if they're listening: The rest of us
simply just don't have the guts to do anything,
I wish they did.
Anything in the works with regard to any national television
coverage or news media coverage of any sort?
There's been lots of talk but nothing definite. There's no
date set for anything, but there's been a tremendous amount
of interest, national and international.
I heard talk that there's a BIG underground base up there,
too. Did you know anything about that?
I've heard that story, but I have no first-hand knowledge of
it. I haven't been in any tunnels or any underground stuff.
If these aliens that have these UFOs are obviously thousands
of years advanced in technology, it seems, how in the world
would it seem that the Government would come in possession
of these UFOs, if in fact the aliens didn't actually want
them to have them?
I don't know. They look in very good condition. It doesn't
look like they were crashed, that they were retrieved somewhere.
It really looks like they were given. So I don't know; that
might be the case.
Have you ever given thought to the fact that maybe they were
invited here and they actually landed here and that's why
they were here?
Yeah, it's possible.
They could have come right to this area.
Jim from Las Vegas:
On TV, you spoke of observing a demonstration of this
anti-matter gravity wave controller device. And you
made a mock-up copy?
A friend made one, yeah.
I heard you speak of bouncing golf balls off of this
And also about the candle, the wax, and the flame
And then the hole that you saw appear --
It wasn't a hole; it was a little disk.
Under what conditions did you see this demonstrated.
Elaborate on this. And how large was the force field?
The force field where the candle was?
The force field created by the anti-matter device.
It was about a 20-inch radius from the surface of the sphere.
Where was this area, just above the device?
Yeah, surrounding the sphere.
Did the sphere surround the device?
No, the sphere sits in the center of the device.
It's a half-sphere sitting on a plate, and a field
surrounds the half-sphere.
And you just place a candle in there?
No, no, no. That was a separate demonstration. I'm
just telling you where the field EXTENDS from.
Oh, that's what I'm curious about.
No, they tap the field off using a wave guide, off of
the sphere. And this is a completely different setup, where
they had a mockup small gravity amplifier, and there were
three focused into a point, and that area of focus was
probably nine or ten inches in diameter.
They displaced this area or moved this area?
No, it wasn't displaced; it's just where the field was
And in there you put the candle?
And that thing can actually bounce golf balls of of it?
No, no. The golf ball thing, again, had nothing to do with that
setup. The golf ball thing had something to do with just when
the reactor was energized, before the wave guide was put on or
anything. We were just pushing on the field; it was being
demonstrated to me; and we just bounced a golf ball off the top.
And the candle: Does it melt and the flame stand still in
this DISK that you're talking about?
Well, in the AREA, yeah.
You don't have to put it in the center?
Just anywhere in the area?
Well, the actual flame of the candle WAS in the area --
in the center of the disk.
And you saw this happen?
You don't show much emotion.
Maybe that's my nature, but that's what happens after ten
o'clock if I'm sitting in one place.
I'm not being derogatory about it. I'm just saying it
seems like there's no emotion. Some of this stuff that
you're talking about just gives me chills!
We get mail from people at Jet Propulsion Laboratory and
McDonnell Douglas. Would you like to work for people
I don't know. I'm kind of used to working for myself. I
don't know about going to work for . . . especially anything
attached to the Government again, [look with] distrust . . .
Off the air, I asked what would you like to see for the future
and what could you do for humanity? He said we could talk about
that, but the main concern right now is how he can support
himself, and I didn't realize you were having difficulty as far
Oh no, not really difficulty, but it's something always
to look for.
How could anyone in our listening audience assist you?
Oh, they really can't. There's several things I did
before I began to get into the program up there. I used
to race my jet car. I'll probably start that up again
this season and expand my scientific business, United Nuclear.
I'll probably increase that into a sales field and things
Okay, I just thought we could bring that up just in
case there was someone out there that could use your
services. What service do you offer, if someone out
there could use it?
Someone would have to be fooling around with plutonium,
and there aren't many people that do that.
Don't bet on that. You never know.
Was the craft you worked on one that WE made or was it
one that was brought here by the aliens from another
This is a craft of alien origin.
That was brought here BY them from another planet?
Do we know anything about their way of life? Do they
speak the same language or what?
I really don't know. I really know very little about
that. I'd LIKE to know a lot about that. You assume
that they mass-produce the craft, so there must be
some sort of factory somewhere. That means there must
be workers in the factory. Do they have a social life?
I mean, the questions are endless. I'd like to know
And if they are here on this planet, WHERE are they?
That's another good question. You got me. I really
If one walked up to my door, what am I supposed to do?
I don't know. I guess you'll find out really quick if
they're benevolent or not. But as far as what to
do, who knows?
Say you're up in Kansas out in a farmland and you see
this person that looks really far-out, do you think
they're just going to wait for them to come to the
door or do you think they're going to shoot and ask
Probably shoot and ask questions later --
That's the problem. Wouldn't that cause all kinds
of consternation amongst these people if they find
out one of their people were --
Well, you have all the stories of the abductee
reports, about medical examinations; I mean they go
through a lot of trauma and stuff like that. When it
came right down to it, if I was confronted by a bunch
of them -- my car stopped or something to that effect,
a craft obviously in sight -- yeah, I'd take on
a hostile attitude really quickly.
Unless you were told differently --
-- by the Government: these people don't mean to harm
you; they're going to be landing in your cities, whatever;
just [kinda act friendly.]
Do you think in the future our President will tell us
on national television that the UFOs are here, that he
will make it known to us?
I doubt it.
You don't think he ever will?
No, I don't think he could muster up enough to do that.
One of the presidents in the past was supposed to say
that if he was elected he was going to tell us all about
it, but he didn't.
Carter. That tells you something right there, because
he never got in and denied it. He just got in and didn't
Did you have a badge when you went to work?
Did it have any designation on it?
As far as what?
What did it say?
It's a white badge. It has two -- a light blue and a
dark blue -- diagonal stripes through it. On the top
it says MAJ-12. The clearance level is called
MAJESTIC; I don't know if that was, like I said before
I don't know if that means anything as far as the
MAJESTIC-12 documents go, or if they just called that
clearance that as a nostalgia type of thing. My picture
was on it -- what else was on it . . .
Did it have both MAJ and MAJESTIC -- both words?
The only place I ever saw MAJESTIC was on Dennis's
[Mariano] badge, who was my supervisor, and his badge
looks slightly different. I don't know if it was an
older kind or what.
You mentioned you were doing back-engineering, but
specifically, what was the breakdown of your duties,
for example, for one day, with respect to, say, what
your co-workers were doing? What was the breakdown,
the division of tasks?
I have no knowledge of what the other people were doing.
But you were not working simply by yourself.
No, just with one person.
And what was the difference between what you did and
what he did?
Well, we were basically in the training phase. He was
getting me up to date on everything, so we never split
off, and you know, he went and did his thing, and I --
Did you ever see an analysis or spectrogram of 115?
And what did that tell you?
Well, that it was an unknown element. Then we did density
and weight calculations, which are pretty basic, and of
course it was too heavy for its physical size. It was
an X-Ray spectrograph. I don't remember what other
tests we did to it.
How did you know what the times of testing would be to
go up to the sites to view the object. And do you know
where it's being tested now?
Dennis told me the testing times. And of course those
were the times that I relayed to other people, and we
went out there. What was the other question?
Do you know where it's being tested now?
Oh, I have no idea. In fact, if I was them, the last
place I would test them would be S-4.
Are you familiar with Alnico 5 magnetic material we
Yeah, it's a common -- I never heard the 5
It's a very dense magnet. Is that close to the
material of 115?
Oh no, not at all. That's an acronym for aluminum,
nickel, iron, and cobalt, none of them being anywhere
near it whatsoever.
Are there portholes on that craft?
At the very top, there is portholes; they are square,
But they must be able to see by TV or. . .?
I don't know. I just saw from the outside. When I was
inside, I never -- I don't think I really even bothered
to look up there; I don't recall.
With the gravity generators running, is there thermal
No, not at all. I was never down on the bottom WHILE
the gravity generators were running, but the reactor
itself -- there's no thermal radiation whatsoever. That
was one of the really shocking things because that
violates the first law of thermodynamics.
The atomic weight of the 115 material: Is that heavier?
We know the 115 atomic weight would be different from the
gravitational weight. Is the gravitational weight of
that material very heavy?
How does that stuff break off? Do you saw it or does it
grind up. How do you get to test grams or whatever it is?
I don't know. I really don't know how that's machined into
it. I know it is machined, but I don't know if there's
any special procedures employed.
Does it melt?
I'm sure it does. And just historically, all heavy elements
are also toxic. I imagine it is a very toxic thing. What
else? If you use the standard designations as started at
103, its name would be "unuspentium [sp?]." Its symbol --
if it's going to be plugged into the periodic chart -- would
be UUP. In fact. I have a friend that gave it kind of a cute
name; he calls it "unobtainium."
In your wildest dreams, do you think you would be able to
create any of this stuff on earth -- in order to do the same
In fact, I'm in the process of fabricating the gravity
amplifier, but then I'm at a tremendous shortage for power.
So yeah, I have even tried to do that stuff on my own.
Is there any electronics as we know it -- chips or
No, nothing like that. Because of the tremendous power
involved, too, there was no direct connection between
the gravity amplifiers and the reactor itself.
Are the wave guides similar to what we use with
You mentioned all heavy metals are toxic?
Yeah, they seem to be. Lead, radium, plutonium . . .
You would just assume it would be toxic.
Is Sector 4 also called Papoose Dry Lake Bed?
Is it also in a place called Emigrant Valley?
Right. You can see Papoose Dry Lake from out of the
In regard to the long-range method of travel, isn't
a propulsion unit the wrong idea? I feel this device
is creating a situation where it is diminishing or removing
the localized gravitational field, and long-distance body
that they're heading toward is actually PULLING the vehicle
rather than it being pushed. Am I correct in this?
The vehicle is not being pushed. But being pulled implies
it's being pulled by something externally: it's pulling
something else to IT. IT's creating the gravitational
Is there any relation to the monopoles which [scientists]
have been looking for?
Well, they've been looking for the monopole magnet.
But then this [the UFO force] is a gravitational force.
Different things but exhibiting similar effects?
Last night I saw a four-door Japanese car. On the
right-side, rear, passenger door there were three
9mm bullet holes, about a 12-inch group. Is that
the vehicle that was shot at?
No. That's similar to my car, but they missed me.
Do we give something in exchange for all this information
they're giving us?
I really don't know. I don't know what went on behind
the scenes as far as how we got the technology.
Did they give us the 115 in large quantities?
Yeah, 500 pounds is what I'm told. The way I've
seen it, it comes in little thin disks close to the
size of a half dollar.
Did you ever own any, or -- ?
What happened to it?
It's gone. It was stolen out of my house along with
some other stuff that I got from there.
[By] the Government?
That's what I assume; I HOPE it's in their hands;
I'd hate it to be in . . . A few people did know
about it -- some UFO-related people -- and I'd hate
for unexperienced people to be in possession of
But yeah, that was taken. We did get some film of
it and some film of it doing some really unusual
How did you get hired at Area 51?
I was referred by a well-known physicist to talk to
someone. And I really don't want to go all into that
because then I'm pointing fingers at specific people.
Were everyone's mouths shut where you worked?
Yeah, everyone wouldn't let you talk, and it wasn't a
really happy environment. Everyone was just into what
they were doing and that was it.
What year were you working up there?
I heard from someone I know that's a pretty good
source that a small amount of plutonium, like a picogram,
might be good for you. Is that true?
No, not at all.
What would you use plutonium for?
To die. In the lungs, it's almost immediate lung cancer.
It's toxic in itself. The body has a tough time getting
rid of it. It's just bad news.
And you're messing with it.
I don't have any at my house.
You said that's part of what you're working on.
Electronic equipment to detect plutonium: They're
called alpha radiation detectors or air proportional
Why do you want to detect the plutonium?
They use them to screen personnel that are leaving an
area that's been plutonium contaminated; they check
equipment for plutonium contamination; so on and so
This is as bad as radiation?
Plutonium does produce radiation.
So it's as bad as when they've been clearing the people
in nuclear power plants and stuff like this?
And you're devising a device that's going to be
No, our device is just less expensive.
Can you list your credentials?
As far as what?
I have two masters degrees; one's in physics; one's in
electronics. I wrote my thesis on MHD, which is
I worked at Los Alamos for a few years as a technician
and then as a physicist in the Polarized Proton Section,
dealing with the accelerator there.
I was hired at S-4 as a senior staff physicist to work on
gravitational propulsion systems and whatnot associated with
What school did you go to?
I'd rather not say, the reason being I am currently
working with them under contract, and I'm having enough trouble
with this as it is.
Why did you leave the Groom Lake project?
I don't want to go into that either. That's a big,
long complicated story. It gets into my personal life,
too, and I don't want to get into that.
Have there been any attempts made on your life?
When was the last one?
There was only one direct one. I really don't remember
when that was, maybe six, eight months ago, something like
that. Just being shot at getting out on the freeway.
Did another car drive by and shoot you?
Are there any weapons on board the alien craft?
Not that I know of. Of course, the gravity generators
themselves can be focused, and I imagine that can be
used as a weapon.
How many alien people do they hold?
I don't know. How many people can you fit in a car?
I imagine if there's a bunch standing up, you can pack
them in there.
Is Element 115 an extraterrestrial material?
How do you suppose the S-4 project came to acquire
500 pounds if it's not from this world?
I would imagine it came on one of the craft.
Extra fuel, huh?
How close can a civilian get to Area 51 or Emigrant
Valley? What is security like? How many guards and
I think the closest you can get is probably about 10 miles,
and then you get a mountain between you and them.
A lot of patrols?
Off the air, you said you traveled one time on hydrogen
in your car.
Yeah, I had a 1978 TransAm I converted to run on hydrogen.
We were talking about this one night as a new fuel for
transportation. Is that more dangerous than gasoline?
It depends how it's stored. There's ways you can do it.
You can store it as a gas, compressed in a cylinder where,
yeah, it's dangerous and explosive.
You can store it as a liquid -- cryogenic liquid --
where it's also dangerous and explosive.
Or you can also store it in a hydride [sp], a chemical
that absorbs hydrogen like a sponge absorbs water. When
it's in that storage state, it's really not flammable.
You heat the chemical using the radiator water, or electrically,
or the exhaust gas to produce the hydrogen, and there's only
a small amount at a time ever produced. And in that instance
it's a lot safer than gasoline, and that's the method I use.
In other words, we could put these in automobiles?
Absolutely, definitely. The only exhaust is water vapor --
essentially steam and very little oxides.
Where do we get hydrogen?
The most common place is from water. When you pass electricity
through water, you break down the bonds and wind up with oxygen
What could we be charged if we pulled up to a tank and asked
for some water?
It takes energy to separate the water back into its molecular
state, or atomic state rather.
But forgetting what the components are inside the car, if
a driver were to drive up, they would just have to put water
into this particular unit? Could they make it that simple?
You could make it that simple, yes.
Has this been known for years in the scientific field?
There's been plenty of cars that have been made to run on
hydrogen. In fact one state somewhere has their entire postal
fleet with little jeeps that run on hydrogen. There's a
company called Billings Energy that does the conversions.
Why do you think it's not being made readily available to us?
There's probably lots of reasons. You're looking at the oil
companies. . .
Okay. That's what I wanted to get to.
But you can always point your finger at them for anything.
But I mean, it's just being held back from us even though it
could be here.
But you've got the problem of availability, too, if you're
going to just use gaseous hydrogen.
What would it take to change our current motor in a car to
Not very much at all. It's very similar to a propane
Have you heard from Mr. Teller at all?
Not one word? In other words, he's done nothing at all?
You said we're nowhere near being able to have an
No, not at all. The first thing we'll come up with
when we toy with that some more is -- and there's already
been talk of it -- is an anti-matter weapon. Unfortunately,
that's the easiest thing to produce. First we'll see that
before we'll see potential useful uses.
I was talking to Bob Lazar off the air, and Bob is a jet
car driver. That's how he relaxes, doing 350 miles per hour.
Are the nine disks quite different in appearance?
Yeah, they're all completely different in appearance.
Are they then perhaps from different star systems?
You said the one you looked at, the Sport Model, was from
That's what I READ.
So that has the gravity propulsion system. But then some
of the others may have some other type of propulsion system?
I was told that the reactors are all similar in them [the crafts],
and from that I just assume that the propulsion system is the
same. But it is possible that the other ones have different
propulsion systems, yeah.
How many light years from Earth to Reticulum?
32, 33, 34, somewhere around there.
They must get away from Earth before they amplify these
gravitational systems, do they not?
They don't HAVE to, but it has to be a line of sight where
they can move to.
In other words, it wouldn't have any effect on the Earth even
though it were close to it when they turned it on?
Where do the aliens fit into religion? They must say
something about it. I heard that they had a [bearing]
on us through religion, perhaps through colonization.
I've read some about that. You know, I don't want to
go into that because that's going to upset everybody.
What is the top speed of the craft?
It's tough to say a top speed because to say speed you have
to compare distance and time. And when you're screwing
around with time and distorting it, you can no longer judge
a velocity. They're not traveling in a linear mode where they
just fly and cover a certain distance in a certain time.
That's the real definition of speed. They're bending and
distorting space and then essentially snapping it back with
the craft, so the distances they can travel are phenomenal --
in little or no time. So speed has little bearing.
Is the laser part of their technology or their flying speed?
No, I haven't seen anything along that line.
Is Rockwell involved with that?
Not that I've seen.
You've mentioned anti-gravity generator and anti-matter
generator. Are they different?
It's not a gravity generator; it's a gravity amplifier. I
get tongue-twisted all too often.
The anti-matter reactor provides the power for the craft and
the basic low-amplitude gravitational wave, which is too low
of an amplitude to do anything. It's piped into the gravity
amplifiers, which are found at the bottom of the craft.
There it's amplified into an extremely powerful wave, and
that's what the craft is flown on. But there is an anti-matter
reactor: that's what provides the power.
Roger Nelson, KBAY-Radio San Francisco announcer:
Last time I asked Bob Lazar about the hyper-light propulsion
systems he had seen, he said the crafts have hyper-light
capabilities -- beyond the speed of light. Do you know
anyone in our government or who worked on the craft who
might be from Earth who has taken those craft and flown
past the speed of light to other galaxies?
I don't, and I don't know if they have been used for that.
Is there any way to find how many of our guys on particular
programs have gone to space, what they're learning, exactly
where they are now, and whether or not there's any tie-in
with the Alternative Three Escape-Earth Plan that supposedly the
Government leaders are stirring up now. Is there any place
that you know of that this information can be found?
I imagine, if any of that is in fact true, it would be found in
the midst of S-4 or 51 down there. But how to contact those guys
and actually get them to talk is a feat not yet attained.
What is it you are now doing now that they have cut you off
at the knees?
I do other scientific research and produce, design, and
repair alpha radiation detection equipment.
A number of copies of these broadcasts and the show on
Channel 8 and all the other stuff has been getting around,
perhaps even internationally. Has anybody bothered you since
you went public?
Other than the sily little things that have been done, no,
nothing, nothing big to be concerned about.
Are we going to see you at any of these things like the
January 7th conference ["An Evening With Bill Cooper," Showboat
Hotel Sports Pavilion, Las Vegas, Nevada, 5:00 p.m. - 8:00 p.m.,
$15 per person], or other symposiums in the future?
I don't think so, no.
Well look, I think you're a very brave man. With that kind of
an onus on your head, it takes a lot of courage to keep coming
back to the airwaves. I stand up and cheer as one.
How do your magnetohydrodynamics studies relate to the hot
spots in the earth's magnetic flux, and does that relate to the
deep-hole theory, the Soviet Union's plan?
I don't know what the Soviet Union's plan was. I looked at
it from a power point of view, as producing on a large scale
plasma-generated energy in a power-plant situation, or producing
something that would retrofit -- like a coal-fired plant that
has a lot of waste heat and high-energy plasma.
The question is, are you experimenting using the earth's flux?
No. There's stand-alone high-energy magnets that I use.
What is the atomic weight of 115?
I hate even to guess. I know it because we've written it down
because we've calculated it, but I really don't remember.
Can you give us a ballpark?
No, 'cause I'd be wrong! Just like if I gave a ballpark on the
gravitational wave frequency -- and that's really bugging the hell
out of me.
There were three things, as a matter of fact, that for some reason
I've developed a mental block on. I'll have to call Billy, and
then he can announce it on the air. I'll just call him and then
he can relay it to everyone.
I'd like to stand up and cheer for Bob Lazar! It does take a
lot of courage, and it's about time somebody stepped forward with
some information that's being kept from us for so long.
How long do you think it took them to make their journey here,
using their methods of propulsion?
An extremely short time. I'd hesitate to say, but I don't think
you're even looking at days.
Is that because of this gravity lines-of-force thing or because
time stands still for them and it really does take a long time
but they don't know it because time stands still?
No, they're actually traveling almost IN-BETWEEN time because
of the way that they distort time and space. So that they're
traveling vast distances without the incrementation of time.
The time would be very, very little. Days is probably --
I'm way off saying that, too. But I hate to say something
and be really far off.
Could these aliens be robots and not actually be native beings
from that galaxy?
I imagine it's possible. Who knows what actually flew the
craft, whether or not aliens have ever been in Area S-4
down there, but it's possible that some automated creature
flew them. Who knows?
You made a statement when he asked how long it took them
to get here, and when you were inside the spacecraft itself
you didn't see any sleeping quarters. So perhaps they just
start in the morning and they're here in the afternoon;
it's that simple as far as OUR time goes.
If it even takes that long.
When your hypnotherapist, Layne Keck, talked on the air
about you, did you request that?
That he talk about me?
No, George Knapp requested that, and then Layne called me to
find out if it would be okay, and I said yeah, go ahead.
Well, I called the office and that was what I was told,
and it didn't seem quite --
That I requested Layne to go on? No.
That's what the person in the office said.
How was your experience there with him? How did you feel
about your experience?
As far as what? How I got along with Layne?
No. As far as how you felt comfortable with going back
to some unpleasant experiences.
The emotions came up when you're under hypnosis, and that
part wasn't exactly pleasant.
How do you feel about it today?
I feel better. At the time, it wasn't very pleasant.
But in general, just being under hypnosis is a really
You have the videotape of that?
It's in your possession?
I don't want to say where it is, but I know where it is.
I'm going to be doing that because I was with him. So for
my own personal information, I just wanted to do that,
because I have good aliens, bad aliens, you know, it runs
in my family. And there's an extreme reason why I'm going to
be doing this, so I wanted to clarify that and try to
make myself . . .Although I can do it on my own, I won't
go deeper than a certain point.
Is there any limit on the distance a spaceship can travel.
Can it actually travel out of our galaxy to the Andromeda
galaxy? How far can 223 grams of Element 115 take you?
I really don't know. From what I understand, the actual
consumption of the element is very low; I imagine it is
possible with enough [junk] made to travel to another galaxy.
I assume the gravity wave is more powerful than the
gamma wave, correct?
Than the GAMMA wave?
Or the spectral wave? What's the limit on light waves
with the 10 billion light years or something -- how far light
A limit as far as what? It depends on the interaction:
the gravitational fields the beam passes through, the
photons pass through, and so on and so forth, so there's
no real limit at true dead space.
As I said last time, and only one person took advantage
of it, if anyone does have any questions they want to ask
me, they can write in care of this station. A person called
earlier and wanted a copy of that newspaper article. I
have no problem in copying that and sending it to him.
So just write to the station, whatever the address is.
End of File
-* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
From: email@example.com (Don Allen)
Subject: INFO: Robert Lazar - First knowledge - Paranet messages
Keywords: Robert Lazar - UFO - Area51
Date: 4 Jul 91 02:03:22 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)
As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to firstname.lastname@example.org
The following are some of the first messages that appeared on the Paranet
UFO network regarding Robert Lazar.
----Begin Included Text ---------------------------------------------
Message #2505 "PN: UFO"
Date: 11-Nov-89 03:25
From: Michael Corbin
Subj: For Immediate Release
Next Reply is Message #2506
November 10, 1989
ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO)--This evening saw
perhaps an unprecedented event in UFOlogy. KLAS-TV in Las Vegas,
Nevada has been airing a UFO special during the evening news
which began on Monday dealing with the UFO mystery and cover-up.
The series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began its coverage
with a history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s and moving
forward through the numerous sighting reports to the cattle
mutilations, which was aired last evening. As promised at the
close of last evening's show, George Knapp, a news anchorman for
Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a scientific person would be
featured on tonight's program who has claimed to work at Area 51,
the government's super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada.
Indeed, quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a physicist who
claimed that he had worked on a project at Area 51 involving
flying disks provided by alien intelligences.
Over the last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating to
possible involvement with the government in projects of this
nature at the Nevada test site. Up to now, the stories have been
of a very speculative nature. Although the material presented by
Robert Lazar remains unconfirmed, enough information has been
disclosed that ParaNet's large investigative staff in Nevada has
started an intensive investigation into this release. It is
interesting to note that Robert Lazar is an associate of John
Lear and has been providing this information to Lear over the
last few months. Lear has appeared on Channel 8 on numerous
occasions together will Bill Cooper discussing Lear's famous 'ET
Hypothesis.' According to Lear, Lazar was instrumental in
providing Lear with locations overlooking the test site which
would provide a good view of the objects as they flew into the
night sky. Lear attempted to shoot video of an object as it
maneuvered through the night sky during last summer, however
nothing was captured on the tape of a substantive nature. Lear
also relates that his group was harassed by a Lincoln County
sheriff following his attempts to take the pictures.
Below is a transcript of the program that aired this
evening. All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator of the
segment. We were as accurate as possible on the transcription,
however there are a couple of places where comments were edited
out due to inability to understand what was being said.
Further reports will be provided as information becomes
We've been working on the story for some time....UFO
researchers claim that there is a secret government within our
government. Now this may be hard to believe coming from the UFO
perspective, but we have learned that Watergate and the Iran
Contra scandal that factions within our government can and do
pursue their own hidden agendas outside of the law; outside the
control of the Congress or the knowledge of the American people.
This is exactly the type of operation that we hear about tonight.
It's a chilling scenario with worldwide implications that may
have its roots right here [Las Vegas, Nevada].
Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevada Test Site, is
no longer considered a secret. The fact that secretive things
go on here isn't evident; even to the Soviets who make daily spy
flights over the facility to take a peek at what's going on.
These photos, never before shown in public, are about as close as
anyone will ever come to seeing what the place looks like again.
The dry bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile
long runway and some highly sophisticated radar and detection
equipment. Its been known by many names over the years --
Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk Works. If ever there was a place
to test the secret new technology, this is it. And that's
exactly what has been done here for decades.
Area 51 is where Francis Gary Powers and the other U-2
pilots were trained in the 50s. And, where the U-2 itself was
developed. The SR-71 spy plane that spotted Soviet missiles in
Cuba in the early 60s were also developed at 51. 51 is where
Stealth technology was nurtured, where Star Wars devices are
still tested, and where all manner of CIA [unknown] business has
been plotted and refined. It's the perfect place for secret
things, but of course, that's no secret. 51 is ringed by the
forbidden vastness of the Nevada test site; by the looming Groom
Mountain and by sparsely populated desert expanses. But the
people that do live out here have no love lost for the military,
but they're conservative, patriotic and they mind their own
Interviewer questioning a nearby resident of Area 51: "Ever see
something that you can't explain?"
Resident: "Sure, lots of times."
Interviewer: "Care to elaborate?"
Resident: "No." (Laughter).
On any given night at the Rachel Bar and Grill, you might
find three or four people who work at Area 51. They are among
the flowing Budweiser and the cowboy hats. You might find them,
but they are not going to talk to you. Not about the things that
they have seen over the mountain. A steady trickle of curiosity-
seekers flows through here; strangers, drawn by strange stories
of lights in the night sky. Their questions also go unanswered.
No one who has worked at Dreamland has ever publicly acknowledged
what so many people have suspected for years: That alien
technology is being tested in the Nevada desert.
The speculation first surfaced in documents obtained by UFO
researchers. Documents about something called Project Aquarius.
The document allegedly prepared for an organization called MJ-12,
states that a program to fly recovered alien spacecraft was
established in 1972 and is continuing in Nevada. The National
Security Agency has confirmed it does have a Project Aquarius but
denies that it has anything to do with flying saucers. NSA will
not say what Project Aquarius is.
Speculation was heightened in 1984, when the Air Force
seized nearly 90,000 acres around Groom Lake. The action was, by
most accounts, illegal. During Congressional hearings about the
land grab, Congressman John Siberling grilled the military about
the legal authority used in the action and was told the authority
was at a much, much higher level than the Air Force.
Siberling asked what authority is higher than the laws of the
United States? The Air Force official said he could respond, but
only in a closed briefing. In 1987, when the Air Force sought to
renew its stranglehold on the Groom range, news articles once
again mentioned the talk about alien spacecraft and subsequent
articles in national magazines quoted un-named sources about
things of alien origin flying in Nevada. Things that would make
film-maker George Lucas drool. Despite the speculation, no one
who knew Area 51 from the inside ever talked publicly about the
Bob Lazar: "Well, there's several uh, actually nine uh flying
saucers, flying disks that are out there of extraterrestrial
origin." The live interview with the shadowy "Dennis" drew
international attention. Portions were broadcast by radio in six
European countries, and in a nationally televised TV special in
Despite numerous inquiries and "feelers," "Dennis" has
remained anonymous until now. His real name is Robert Lazar. A
young scientist with eclectic interests. The choice of "Dennis"
was an inside joke -- he says that's the name of his superior at
Groom Lake. It wasn't a joke to Dennis.
Lazar: "He called right after and said, 'Do you have any idea
what we're going to do to you now?' and I said no, and he hung up
Lazar's story is by any standard, fantastic. He says he's
telling it in order to protect himself. He said he was hired to
work in area called S-4 which is a few miles south of Groom Lake.
At S-4, he says, are flying saucers, anti-matter reactors and
other working examples of technology that is seemingly beyond
Lazar: "Right. This stuff came from somewhere else. I know it
is hard to believe, but it is there and I saw it. I know what
the current state-of-the-art is in physics and it it can't be
Checking out Lazar's credentials proved to be a difficult
task. He says he holds degrees in physics and electronics, but
the schools that we contacted say they've never heard of him. He
says he also worked as a physicist at Los Alamos National
Labs where he worked with one of the world's largest particle
beam accelerators, a half-mile long 'behemoth' capable of
generating seven-hundred million volts. Los Alamos officials
told us they have no record of Robert Lazar ever working there.
They were either mistaken or were lying. A 1982 phone book from
the Lab lists Lazar right there among the other scientists and
technicians. A 1982 news clipping from the Los Alamos newspaper
profiled Lazar and his interest in jet cars. It, too, mentioned
his employment at the Lab as a physicist. We called Los Alamos
again, and an exasperated official told us he still had no
records on Lazar. EG&G, which is where Lazar says he was
interviewed for the job at S-4, also has no record. It's as if
someone has made him disappear.
Lazar: "Well, they're trying to make me look non-existent to the
places that I called...."
Interviewer: "Explain. Called where?"
Lazar: "Well, the schools that I went to; the hospital that I
was born at; past jobs, and nothing comes up with my name on it."
He smiles, but out of futility, knowing the whole thing must
sound ridiculous. According to Lazar, his employer was the
United States Navy. He says he and other government employees
would gather near EG&G, fly to Groom Lake, then a very few people
would get into a bus with blacked out or no windows and drive to
Interviewer: "You get off the bus, what do you see?"
Lazar: "A very interesting building. Its got a slope of
probably about 30 degrees which are hangar doors, and it has
textured paint on it, but it looks like sand. It's made to look
like the side of the mountain that it is in, whether it's to
disguise it from satellite photographs or what...."
He says he was never told exactly what he would be working
on, but figured it had something to do with advanced propulsion.
On his first day he was told to read a series of briefings, and
immediately realized how advanced the propulsion really was.
Lazar: "The power source is an anti-matter reactor. They run
gravity amplifiers. There is actually two parts to the drive
mechanism. It's a bizarre technology. There is no physical
hookups between any of the systems in there. They use gravity as
a wave using wave guides that look like microwaves."
It took awhile, Lazar says, before he actually saw one of
the flying disks, however there were hints everywhere.
Lazar: "Right. They had a poster, and it looked like a
commercial poster, like it was lithographed, like you could buy
it at K-Mart or someplace, but they were all over the place and
it had the disk that I coined the term 'the floor model' which
lifted off the ground about 3 feet out at the area, in the Dry
Lakes area, and the caption on it said 'They're here.' These
posters were all over the place."
Later, he got to see the real thing.
Lazar: "When I was led in, it was the first time that I saw the
'floor model' in the hangar sitting down, and I was told they
could have walked me in the front door but they purposely wanted
to walk me by it. I was told not to say anything and to keep my
eyes forward and walk past the disk to the office area. And I
did. And as we went by it, I just kinda stuck my hands on it,
just to run it alongside the thing and uh ....After that I got to
see actually lift off the ground and operate."
Interviewer: "You actually got to see more than one?"
Lazar: "Yeah. The hangars are all connected together. There
are large bay doors between each one. There were nine total that
I saw, each one being different. Like they had the assortment
Security at S-4 was oppressive Lazar said, and his superiors
used fear and intimidation almost as a brainwashing tool.
Lazar: "They did everything but physically hurt me."
Interviewer: "They put a gun to your head?"
Interviewer: "You mean they actually put a gun to your head?"
Lazar: "They did that even in the original security briefing.
Guards there with M-16s. Guys there slamming their fingers into
my chest, screaming into my ear, they were pointing weapons at
me. Like I said, it's not a good place to work."
That fear factor would surface later. Lazar agreed to
undergo a polygraph exam as part of this report. Polygrapher Ron
Clay asked about the technology that Lazar had seen.
Polygrapher: "Did you knowingly lie when you had actually seen
anti-gravity propulsion in operation?"
The results of this exam were inconclusive. Lazar appeared
to be truthful on one test; deceitful on a second. Clay
recommended that a second examiner be brought in. Polygrapher
Terry Tabernetti (sp?) runs a corporate security operation and is
a former Los Angeles police officer. He put Lazar through four
tests and concluded there were no attempts to deceive.
Tabernetti sent his test results to a third polygrapher who
agreed the results appeared truthful. The charts were then sent
to a fourth examiner who did not agree suggesting that Lazar
might be relating information he'd learned from someone else.
The polygraphers concurred and decided they would not issue a
final statement on truthfulness until more specific testing can
be conducted. And that's where it stands.
Tabernetti believes the difficulty in determining Lazar's
truthfulness stems from the fear that was drilled into him.
Lazar: "Well, I am telling the truth. I've tried to prove that.
What's going on up there could be the most important event in
history. You're talking about contact, physical contact and
proof from another planet, another system, another intelligence.
Thats got to be the biggest event in history, period. And, it's
real and it's there. And I had an extremely small part in it.
I'm convinced that what I saw is absolute proof of that. There
is no way that we could have created those disks. There is no
way we could have made the disks, the power supplies, anything
that goes with it."
Lazar says he has no intention of going on any UFO lecture
circuit. He is not looking to do any additional interviews. In
fact, he was not too crazy about doing this one. He did it after
certain unfavorable things started happening in his life, and he
did it because he feels that whoever is running the show up at S-
4 is perpetrating a fraud on the American people and the
Message #3969 "PN: UFO"
Date: 12-Nov-89 01:48
From: Michael Corbin
Subj: Correction to the Area 51 transcript
SUBJECT: ADDENDUM/CORRECTIONS RE 11/10/89 KLAS-TV/NEVADA TEST
SITE/AREA 51 UFO REPORT
My introduction to the partial transcript of the program contains
certain presumptions -- rather than evidence -- which may be misleading.
These presumptions were based on prior SEPARATE KLAS-TV telecasts with Lear
and with a "Dennis" -- now revealed as Robert Lazar.
> It is interesting to note that Robert Lazar is an associate of
> John Lear and has been providing this information to Lear over
> the last few months.
The extent to which Lazar has interfaced with Lear is unknown. In fact,
Lear appears to have had a number of Nevada Test Site sources, any one of
whom could have provided him with the Area 51 information.
> According to Lear, Lazar was instrumental in providing Lear
> with locations overlooking the test site which would provide
> a good view of the objects as they flew into the night sky.
In fact, it is unknown who -- if anyone -- steered Lear to the specific
locations overlooking the Nevada Test Site. Lear has made no statement
regarding Lazar in this regard.
> As promised at the close of last evening's show, George Knapp,
> a news anchorman for Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a
> scientific person would be featured on tonight's program
> who has claimed to work at Area 51, the government's
> super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada.
Rather than being situated at Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas, Area 51
lies in the northeast corner of the U.S. Government's Nevada Test Site at
Mercury, Nevada, which is 65 miles north of Nellis Air Force Base.
Message #4002 "PN: UFO"
Date: 14-Nov-89 03:22
From: Robert Klinn
Subj: Area 51: The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret UFO Base?
Next Reply is Message #4023
With two top local TV stations here in Las Vegas -- KLAS-TV and KTNV-TV --
carrying deadly serious news reports this week of real alien UFOs POSSIBLY
being flown out of the supersecret Area 51, that portion of the U.S.
Government's Nevada Test Site which the Air Force refuses to acknowledge as
even existing, the situation here appears like The War of the Worlds.
At KTNV-TV, photographer Clay Downey and reporter Glen Meek are tracking
down the nature of the on-going projects at Area 51. Off-air, Meek says he
has discovered that Area 51 is comprised of four sections. Of those, he has
learned the type of activity occurring at two of them. He has been having
much difficulty learning the type of activity occurring at the other two.
KTNV will broadcast reports this week at 5:30 p.m. Wed., Thurs, & Fri.
In a videotape presented by KLAS-TV newsman George Knapp, a UFO performs
abrupt manuevers over what may be the "S-4" portion of Area 51 at the Test
Site. Knapp's final report will be broadcast tonight, Tuesday at
approximately 6:15 p.m.
Knapp's star witness is scientist Robert Lazar, who drew a picture of the
craft he saw operating at the base.
Lazar emphatically claims these are alien craft -- not human-made devices.
Lazar says at least one UFO appeared to have been ruptured by a projectile.
War of the Worlds?
Robert B. Klinn
--- QuickBBS v2.04
* Origin: -==- Denver, CO (303)232-6115 (1:104/422)
Message #4024 "PN: UFO"
Date: 15-Nov-89 01:55
From: Michael Corbin
Subj: Installment on Dreamland continued.
November 13, 1989
ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO) -- In our
continuing coverage of the remarkable revelations coming out of
Las Vegas, Nevada, here is the next installment to the program
aired on November 13, 1989 by television station KLAS-TV and
News Anchor persons:
A former government scientist has alleged that the U.S.
military is flying recovered UFOs at a secret base in the Nevada
desert. The allegations about the secret facility near the Groom
Mountains first surfaced on Eyewitness News on last Friday
[November 10, 1989].
Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of the
flying saucers being tested and that they were not built on
Earth. George Knapp has more on the continuation of our series
Lazar: "Yeah. It was obvious it came from somewhere else, uh,
other than Earth."
Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that the technology he saw
being tested at a secret base in the Nevada desert is of alien
origin, and for Lazar the proof is, at least, partially in the
furniture. One of the nine flying disks he says he saw at the
base, which was designated S-4, looks exactly like this UFO
photographed in Europe [Photo of UFO shown]. Lazar called it
the "sport model."
Lazar: "I gave everything names -- the top hat one and you know
the jello mold and, uh, the sport model operated without any
hitches at all. I mean, it looked new. If I knew what a new
flying saucer looked like. One of them looked like it was hit
with some sort of a projectile. It had a large hole in the
bottom and a large hole in the top with the metal bent out like
some sort of, you know, large caliber 4 or 5 inch had gone
Even before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says, he
suspected that the ship came from somewhere else. The
realization slapped him in the face the first time he glimpsed
the inside of the disk.
Lazar: "I got to look inside and it had really small chairs. I
think that was the first confirmation I had. That was just a
shocking thing because everytime before that I was able to label
it. This is just a little advance that a group of scientists had
formed and, you know, they're keeping it secret, and yeah, we
could have built a big disk like that, and yeah, that's no
problem, and, you know, we could have adapted the use(?) to make
it fly, but why does it have little furniture inside? [garbled].
And things began to click together just all too fast."
A few of the disks had been completely dismantled to find
out how they worked, Lazar says, but others were fully
operational. A Japanese TV network created this animated version
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